Trials, tribulations and adventures of refurbishing and
sailing our Westsail 42.

svElysium

Autoprop

My email to the CEO:

I'll start from the begining. I contacted Autoprop at the Miami show last year. I brought down a picture of my boat with dimensions to order the prop. Geoff (of Autoprop) said he needed more information, and when I contacted him after the show he indicated what he needed and I sent it to him. I wanted to get this right and not have a prop that didn't fit or work properly. Geoff ended up faxing me some dimensional diagrams to hold up to my shaft and see if it would fit my aperature. I did and it fit ( a side note, once I got the prop on and turned the helm hard over the prop in a certain configuration could hit the rudder. So I had to shorten the shaft 3/4" to accomodate this possibility.) In the future with potential purchasers I would suggest that Autoprop may want to include a comments to check with the rudder full port or full stdb). In the email of April 13th from Geoff he said that was good news and indicated the correct prop to be the H6-520 for a Perkins 4-236 85 hp 2500 rpms and a 1.25" shaft. During our phone conversation I questioned the 21" prop as the boat had a 20" x 10" fixed 3 blade on her. He indicated that the H6-520 was the correct propellor. I purchased the prop, installed it and lauched the boat the 3rd week in September. Immediately I noticed that when we reached 1300 to 1400 rpm the propellor shaft would vibrate (mp4) shaking the entire 30,000 lb boat. I never ran at this rpm more the 15 secs as I didn't really want to damage any of the drive train or the boat. (Note: I didn't know this when I sent this email but the vibration was so severe that a leak developed between the bearing and the hull.) On September 25, 2006 I wrote Geoff of the problem. I don't have any record of a response to my email and if memory serves me correct I had to call Geoff. He said I needed to fill out a data sheet which he would forward to the engineers, I'm assuming in England. I took the boat out and ran all the tests I could without exacerbating any potential problems with the vibration issue. I also took a video of the vibration. The boat reached hull speed at 1300 rpms. On September 27 I faxed the information to Geoff and he indicated the engineers were at the Ft. Lauderdale, Miami boat show and would get back with me in a week or so. He also wanted to confirm all the initial information, which I did. None of the initial information has changed. All was correct.

On Novemeber 13th I received a reply from Geoff indicating that the "head engineer" at Autoprop suggested that it is "shaft whirling" He asked for the shaft length and bearing spacing between brackets and the gearbox. He also asked for a dockside test and to run the propeller up to maximum in forward and astern and record the vibration levels. He suggested the shaft diameter was at the minimum limit. (Remember, he knew the shaft diameter when I bought the prop and said this was the correct prop). On the same day I digitized the video and sent it to Geoff and indicted I would get the measurements to him when I was at the boat. On November 14th I tried again to run it higher at the dock and pushed it to 1500 1600 rpms and the vibration didn't moderate and I stopped for fear of damaging something. I believe in the dockside test the maximum rpm for vibrations in reverse was higher than in forward. All of this info is on the datasheet I faxed. On Novemember 14th Geoff couldn't open the video so I configured it into two different formats hoping they could then view the video. On Novemeber 20th I sent Geoff the shaft lenght of 46" from the engine coupling to the stern tube. (Please note that this was not on any previous request for information in correctly sizing the prop.) I also indicated that I needed to remove 3/4" of the shaft (because of the above mentioned possiblility of physically contacting the rudder when hard over) . In an email to Geoff on November 20th from David at Bruntons he indicated that it is "shaft whirl" and the two remedies are reducing the overhang and adding stiffer engine mounts. He indicated "the installation will not be improved with out making these fundamental changes to the shaft installation". Now I'm getting rather frustrated. I want a propellor for my boat. I didn't wish to redo the entire drive train to accomodate the propellor. I sent a letter to Geoff indicating such, saying why I contacted Autoprop America before I bought the prop etc. I'm including the text of the message here:

Dear Geoff,

The reason I contacted Autoprop before I bought the prop was to ensure I receive the correct propellor for my boat considering all the factors. I sent you all the information you requested. I compared the diagrams you faxed me to the aperature opening, making sure the prop would swing ok. I know the Auto prop works fine for Westsail 42's and 43's as the boat Hiatas ( I believe that is the correct boat name) and the owner is D***** has one and has reported no problems. Unfortunately I don't currently know where he is and can't verify the size prop he has. Hiatas is a Westsail 43 with exactly the same underbody, shaft dia and shaft length as our boat. He never reported any issues with this configuration. I don't know if you can find the information in your database or not. I find your engineers comments interesting about having a similar situation w/ another prop. As they indicated; "It's possible that any folding or feathering propeller could possibly have the same symptoms due to the additional weight of them & the further distance aft on the shaft that they are hung." With the 20" fixed prop I had, there was never this problem. Another friend w/ the Max-Prop feathering; same underbody configuration; same engine, same shaft diameter, same shaft length, same stern bearing doesn't have the vibration. You're engineer(s) describes this as a shaft whirl and although it may begin as such there is much vibration that one can physically feel the frequency on the boat. If indeed the engineers are suggesting that the issue is that the shaft is to small for the prop then I'm interested in how we're going to remedy the situation. You guys fabricated the prop for the 1 1/4" shaft and an 85 hp engine. You knew that ahead of time and there was no indication that it would not work. Even when I had mentioned my concerns on the phone when discussing the 21" prop and that the prop that came w/ the boat was a 20" diameter; you indicated that the 21" would be the correct size. Additionally; I'm not aware of an ABYC standard for minimum shaft diameter / engine hp. I do know there is a recommended prop dia / shaft size and the 21" prop is slightly over the recommended size . If memory serves me correct the ABYC standard is 16 to 1. Which means that I should be able to carry a 20" prop w/o a problem. Autoprop recommended a 21" diameter prop. Again this is why I contacted Autoprop prior to purchasing the prop. I wanted to avoid any drive train issues. Obviously this hasn't happened. Thus I'm wondering what our course of action will need to be. I'm not interested in reworking the drive train. Adding a pillow bearing isn't practical. I don't believe it should fall on me to adjust the shaft dia, the stern bearing, the coupling, fixing the prop for a larger dia shaft; all when I had contacted Autoprop prior to the purchase. I could understand a cost to me if I would have; on my own, simply purchased a prop that I thought would work.

Since I provided Autoprop with all requested information prior to purchase, discussed with Autoprop on the phone my particular boat specifics, I am suggesting that this situation is not acceptable and am asking you what needs to be done with the prop to receive the performance you advertise.

Sincerely,

As stated above there are other owners that have the exact same boat with successfully installed Autoprops. Since that email I had discovered another owner on an identical sister ship in BC, Cananda. I was able to contact the owner in British Columbia, Canada. On November 28th I sent Geoff the owners name and residence as well as the boat name. Mr. R******* (the current owner in BC) indicated that he thought it was an 18" prop. On November 29th I sent Geoff an email saying that Mr. R******** had recently purchased some zincs from him and indicated he sent him the prop information. He couldn't find the information at the time to email me with the prop ID. On November 29th Geoff asked me to get the number. (Here again I am having a hard time accepting that it is my responsibility to run this information down). Mr R****** had sent this information to Autoprop and indicated that to me. On December 4th I received the information from Mr. R****** and I forwarded his response to Geoff. Again he too has a Westsail 42, same shaft dia, same engine same model boat. His message is quoted below:

"My autoprop is 20" RH and it replaced a 20" 3 blade fixed prop with 14" pitch. With the old prop I did about 10 hours of motoring. Then she was out of the water for 10 months. The new prop does not appear to cause any more vibration than the original. I ran her this weekend at the dock at 2000 RPM and everything seems stable. I did notice on our trips in the summer more responsiveness with the autoprop and better speed."

Regards

I had sent Autoprop the address of another Westsail 42 owner with a similar setup and no problems.

On December 6th Geoff emailed me asking for me to get the serial number of the boat in British Columbia. By the way, I'm in Florida, USA. He indicated that he wanted to compare blade size not just the diameter of the blade and loading. I could not immediately get that and I let him know. On December 7th Geoff suggested if I can get it to forward it to him, he'll further forward the information I sent him to Autoprop.

Next correspondence is January 9th. I emailed Geoff a followup indicating what I sent him of Mr. R******. On January 18th I had not heard from Geoff and emailed David (the only other persons address I had at Auto Prop). I indicated I wasn't satisfied and the brochure says that Autoprop will work till 100% satisfied. I asked David to forward my communication to someone at Autoprop that might be able to work with getting my issue resolved as I hadn't heard from Geoff and not sure of his status with the company, employement, vacations, or possible illness.

On January 18th Geoff said he had been away traveling boat shows. He said that he didn't have Mr. R***** information recorded anywhere in the USA. He said he will see if the UK has it. He indicated that he had not received the information from the gear box to the shaft log and that he can't find where he sent it to the engineers. On January 18th I wrote Geoff again the Bearing distance of 46" and gave him the email date I sent it. Also in a seperate email I informed him that Mr. R****** is not in the USA but in British Columbia, Canada. In general I'm concerned that Autoprop USA is trying to avoid dealing with my issue. I did everything I could to get the correctly sized propellor for the boat. I did not make any clerical errors that would result in having a propellor missmatched to the boat. A couple of my personal observations of this situation are:

• Only two things seemed to have mattered when I purchased the propellor
  • engine / transmission and
  • aperature opening
• There wasn't any additional information asked for on hull characterstics (maybe Autoprop has that information on file).
• No questions about what engine size the standard factory installation and if this engine was an upgrade or downgrade from what it was listed with, and
• There was not one question asked about the shaft length and if there are any pillow bearings included in that length.

I hope we can get this resolved because I do love the concept of the propellor, I like the reverse thrust and to me it is a work of art. But it doesn't yet work correctly and the cost of this install is not one I can just walk away from.

Sincerely

On Jan 29, 2007, at 5:15 AM, the CEO of Autoprop wrote:

Dear David,

I'm sorry to hear of the problems you are experiencing with the Autoprop and the service you are getting in the USA. I am not personally aware of this specific problem, but if you can send me the serial number of your propeller I can do some research at this end and see if we can sort the problem out for you. The serial number should be on your paperwork, and is also stamped on the propeller blades (although I suspect these are underwater at the moment!). The number will be of the form AP****. In the meantime I will also speak to our USA office to get their input as well. I am travelling this week so will not necessarily be able to reply to your emails instantly, but will endevour to reply within a day or so. Apologies for the obvious frustration this is causing you, I will do my best to get this sorted as soon as we possibly can.

Sincerely,

• New smaller prop from Autoprop 21" diameter to 20".
• Replaced the stern bearing and made and extended a new stern bearing housing
• New shaft and coupling
• Replaced all engine mounts
• Added a Shaft Lok
• Autoprop had not suggested but Bob at C n B did that we get water to the bearing-so we added a Tides Marine dripless stuffing box

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